Why do you pay for PLC programming software?

C
The advantages all relate to it's monopolistic omnipresence. If there are any technical advantages, I would be at a loss to identify them. It's pretty amusing that RA would be talking about advanced GUI features. I haven't seen anything from them that couldn't be done more efficiently on Linux except crashing. A light client for GUI purposes is diametrically opposed to the direction Microsoft is taking when you need a supercomputer just to run their OS.

Regards,
cww
 
B
I've been using Rockwell software since before it was RS.

I will grant that their history of buggy and crashing software is legendary. However, the last few years it has become remarkably stable. Probably because they had plenty of time to work out the XP bugs.
 
There is no real technical advantage for using MS Windows for GUI work as compared to any other OS. In fact, the GUI used in MS Windows is really not very good, although you can still write a good GUI type program if you work at it enough. The main reason why people use MS Windows is that Microsoft has contracts with computer OEMs to install it on PCs before you buy them.

For companies like AB, you have to realise that what they are selling today is usually an updated version of what they were selling 15 years ago when there weren't a lot of other options available to them. The automation industry tends to follow trends in computing, not lead them. A good example of that is a lot of PLC programming packages required MS-DOS long after MS-DOS had disappeared in the general market.

The new trend in GUIs in the business world seems to be web interfaces that have the same degree of interactivity as traditional GUI systems. They're mainly based on HTML 5 with AJAX or Flash. There's also a new version of Sun Java intended for the same market, and Microsoft has come out with something called Silverlight to try to compete as well (although those latter two seem to be going over like a lead balloon in the market so far). They also have the ability to operate when disconnected from the network and to access files locally.

Those (at least the HTML 5 and Flash ones) tend to make the OS itself irrelevant when it comes to user interaction. It's all relatively new, so most people probably haven't seen applications using them yet. The big advantage to them though is you don't have the headaches and expense of keeping multiple installations up to date and cross compatible with each other. When the user connects, the local copy is automatically and seamlessly updated to whatever the server is running.

The advantage of this approach for the majority of automation applications is so great that I expect to see it replace most of the simpler device configuration and HMI programs.
 
C
Yes, but as usual, their partnership with Microsoft means they will be leaving the XP stability behind.

Regards,
cww
 
C
I agree, at some point the cost of keeping up with MS designed obsolescence and dragging all that legacy forward will far exceed the cost of a rewrite with web tools. But, I expect this to be about the time those web tools are obsolete. And perhaps with a Silverlight boondoggle in between. MS marketing will be in overdrive mode at any sign of an OS independent trend. MS is seriously targeting developers to keep them in line. It will be interesting to see how MS hardball all or nothing marketing will impede progress and if any have the courage to break camp.

Regards,
cww
 
Simple answer: I don't.

A lot of people complain about the monopoly of automation software and OS. And we all know that this fact cannot be changed today or tomorow. The question now become: "Why do you stand that ?".

I don't. Most of the time, feature of a typical PLC (only binary input, binary output) can be realized by a dirt-cheap microcontroller. For many projects, I use PIC16F54 (< 0,5$) with some external electronics components, design schematic diagram and PCB using KiCad to replace costly PLCs. The whole cost of a device is less than 20$, while comparable PLC cost more than 150$. KiCad is free software (both in freedom and price). Ubuntu OS is free too. C compiler SDCC (sdcc.sf.net) is also free software.

It require some electronics knowledge, but not much. If the project require analog input/output, then PSoC uC is a good candidate.

Designing your own controller to replace PLC have a good side-effect: you can decide every component in your controller NOT made in China. Every resistor, every capacitor ... and uC can be bought from the original manufacturer and you can choose NOT from China.

Why do you pay for PLC programming software? Because you don't choose not to.
 
While these are valid points for simple projects I'm not sure they are valid for larger projects. An exception might be to use a high level RTOS (Xenomai, VxWorks, QNX) and fieldbus IO that is well supported (Modbus, etc). Another reality is that it takes company time to design hardware and software and not a lot of organizations will be on board with this (right or wrong).

Also, a reality for a lot of folks on this list are customer specified PLC brands. I don't entirely blame the customer either on this point. I think most people on this list have had to deal with custom hardware/software nightmares [especially the poorly implemented ones] at least once in their career. Imagine buying a machine only to find out the control board is custom and you can't buy a spare, or you are locked in to your vendor for the spare and they go out of business?

KEJR
 
the thread that won't go away.....i love it

Why do I pay for programming software?

Because I want to, need to, have to and I wouldn't change anything.
When I design and build a new piece of equipment I use hardened hardware and software because it’s faster, safer and comes with international service and support.

I would never construct or buy equipment that can't be readily modified or serviced. Try and convince a petrochemical company or power plant to use internally well designed hardware and software....good luck. $1500 for a software licence...peanuts!

Giovanni
 
D

David Ferguson

No, we choose to use it because Windows is everywhere and people are familiar with it, so companies do not have to train people in one-off softwares like UBUNTU. Second, there is a large investment in infrastructure, training of Electricians, Instrument people etc and Engineers in for example AB (a 30-40 year history).

Lastly as been said a million times on this thread, companies (good companies) will not allow you to build one-off systems with "cheap" parts that have no history of survival in the industrial environment. I have AB PLC's that have been running 24/7/365 for over 20 years with nary a hickup. You do not have that history of availability with $20 PLC's and free software..............and if they break, I do not have to find the "specialist" who built the one of a kind machine and left 5 years ago...............................

Fire away.............

Dave Ferguson
Control Systems Engineer
 
> <i>No, we choose to use it because Windows is everywhere and people are familiar with it, so companies do not have to train people in one-off softwares like UBUNTU.</i> <

Windows is just an OS, not the whole sky. In North America, Windows can be "everywhere", but not in Vinashin Group of Vietnam. The standard here is Kubuntu for desktops and RedHat Enterprise for servers.

> <i>Lastly as been said a million times on this thread, companies (good companies) will not allow you to build one-off systems with "cheap" parts that have no history of survival in the industrial environment. I have AB PLC's that have been running 24/7/365 for over 20 years with nary a hiccup. You do not have that history of availability with $20 PLC's and free software..............and if they break, I do not have to find the "specialist" who built the one of a kind machine and left 5 years ago </i> <

The PLC "that have history of survival in the industrial environment" now fail in misery but nobody know why. Maybe because of a bad electrolytic capacitor (most of the time), or fake main microprocessor, or delaminate PCB ... all of them made-in-China. While the label of PLC is a big name, nearly all of them is outsourced to be manufactured in China now. I've seen too many PLCs, inverters, PACs died in 18-20 month in the temperature of 40 Celsius degree and humid of 98% - very typical in Vietnam. The good thing about this is that warranty period of PLCs, inverters, PACs is only 12 months ! Omron, Siemens, Keyence ... to name just a few.

Our company deliver the whole design to customers include schematic diagram, PCB layout, mechanical drawing and instruction for installation and repairing. There's no vendor-locking here. If they want to repair or make themselves - just do it, or they can hire us again or a 3rd-party to do it. Nearly everything is transparent, that's common in our shipbuilding industry.
 
> Our company deliver the whole design to customers include schematic diagram, PCB layout, mechanical drawing and instruction for installation and repairing. There's no vendor-locking here. If they want to repair or make themselves - just do it, or they can hire us again or a 3rd-party to do it. Nearly everything is transparent, that's common in our shipbuilding industry. <

You have obviously tapped into a niche market and I'm sure you will do very well. I would never buy an off the shelf Allen Bradley PLC to be run in a steam bath but some companies like Siemens offer extended temperature range PLC's. I can't in good conscious advise someone to design and construct a controller to handle a facility’s air supply. I can, though, advise to seek out specialty suppliers for special apps.

As far as China goes, don't kid yourself there are alot of high quality board shops over there.

Cheers
 
D
Bill said>>>Maybe someday that will change and enough people will understand software and electronics well enough to support open systems, but that has not happened yet. <<<

In my experience, the technical level of the average engineers and techs in the US has been dropping for years with regards to understanding what is happening in the guts of the controls hardware. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. If your software (the IDE, whether Rockwell's latest or Visual Studio, or whatever) works well, that is no problem. If it does not they may find troubleshooting problems a non-trivial issue. One of the reasons that the level is dropping is that there is a great deal of software out there these days that hides the lower level tasks from the developer and user - which is almost always a good thing. The user, tech, and often even the developer does not NEED to understand what is happening on the stack and can get on with what is really important - developing or troubleshooting an effective control algorithm. The tools we use for both development and for troubleshooting keep getting easier and more intuitive, though sometimes their foibles can be frustrating for those of us who started programming in the 80s.

Davis Gentry
 
In reply to Davis Gentry: While I can't say for sure what is going on in your country, I suspect that what you are seeing is that you're getting older and more experienced and taking your knowledge for granted. I don't know about you, but I was pretty clueless when I first started in this business.

I started off writing a long reply about IDEs and why I'm not impressed by Visual Studio and other similar programs. However I'll just skip that and make two points.

The first is that I think the quality of technical documentation in the automation industry has gone downhill drastically in the past 10 years or so. It used to be that you could expect complete, detailed, and accurate documentation for something. Now it seems you are lucky to be able to get even basic specifications for newer products.

The second is that the problem with a lot of the newer software is the lack of transparency. It can be almost impossible to find out what a piece of software actually does. In some ways this is another aspect of the lack of documentation. Instead the vendor just tells you "don't worry how it works, just push the go button and give me your money".

I really want to know how something works before I will trust it. I may not be able to understand all of it at first, but I want to be able to understand enough to have confidence in it and to know that the extra information is there if I ever need to dig further. That is what I call transparency.

Someone straight out of school today has to work with this lack of documentation and obscurantist software without the experience gained from the days when vendors were more willing (and able) to explain how things work. I've found however that today even the vendors themselves often don't know how their products work, because they've shed their own experienced staff and are just marketing organisations with a high turn over in their reps.

Given the way the market is going, I think this trend is going to get worse. The only solution that I can see is for customers to use more open and transparent systems and to be willing to hire staff who can support themselves (with the help of things like Control.com). And I think there's an important role in there as well for system integrators who are able to develop the necessary expertise to support their customers in the more difficult areas.
 
In reply to William Sturm: You said: "Very few companies are willing to take any risk in their day to day operations on open source software or low cost hardware".

The funny thing is that if you look at the computer industry what we see is the complete opposite. Open source software and commodity hardware have taken over most of the business critical parts of the market with the proprietary stuff hanging by its fingernails based on its ability to run 40 year old COBOL programs. The famous brand names which depended on selling incompatible solutions at high prices are going bankrupt one by one. How many are left now which aren't at death's door?

Where the proprietary stuff is doing best is in the less critical areas like consumer and business desktops. There's still money to be made there (just ask Apple) because they depend more on brand and advertising than on value and performance.

Why do you think the automation business is going to be immune from this trend?

Personally, what I think is going to happen is that some Chinese companies are going to take over the bottom end of the market selling $50 small PLCs over the Internet. The big multi-national automation vendors will then be busy cutting each others' throats battling over the scraps in the remaining "high end" market.

When the dust settles, what is going to be left is cheap, low margin traditional PLCs for the bottom end of the market, one of the big proprietary vendors selling controls to refineries and power plants at eye-watering prices, and half a dozen new open source vendors competing for the broad middle of the market. And the old timers on Control.com will be boring the youngsters with tales about all the companies who once dominated the market but who have since gone to their graves.
 
Your are right!. If you try to design and built your own plc with some 516 I/O digital points plus other 100 analog I/O points for a food processing plant in 6 months and you'll find a problem. Nobody will pay for that no matter how cheap it is! To control your garage door pay for AB software and hardware is not a good idea, but for large scale, highly risky projects, the price is nothing.
 
<i>I find it amazing that the people who laud the vendors who give their software away don't honestly come to grips with what is almost universally true. They give it away because they couldn't sell the crap in the first place.

When something is given away, what does that say about its value? Profit centers don't exist to support products with resources when there is no realized payback.</i>

Had to respond, even though old. Those who have control of the manufacturing process can give away the software as it's rolled into their business model. Those who DO NOT manufacture or DO NOT control the complete manufacturing business model HAVE to charge outwardly for software. And then of course there are the lucky ones who can charge for everything any way they want because of WHO they are.

The company I represent "gives" away their configuration software. We "give" away firmware upgrades. Since we CONTROL the entire process of manufacture we can control this.

You see this type of positioning oftentimes in building automation. Certain vendors are essentially SOFTWARE companies putting their applications on power PC's. Therefore they need licensing, yearly maintenance fees and upgrade fees.

And, let's be honest. I used to be on the purchasing end myself... Most things like this WORK. If there is an issue it is addressed. I think a far bigger problem in the industry is with some programmers that may not completely understand the hardware and software they use.
 
> In reply to Curt Wuollet: I've seen people tear out AB PLCs on brand new
> machines and throw the PLC in the garbage because it was cheaper to
> replace the AB PLC with another brand than it was to buy and maintain the
> software to support it.

Obviously, not a very intelligent customer. Any customer worried enough about cost to replace an AB PLC should at least sell the AB on Ebay.
 
M

Mr. Automation

> My question is simple, but the answer escapes me. To all you devoted Allen
> Bradley people and to everyone else who uses PLCs, why do you pay for their
> programming software?

> For AB to charge $1100 - $1200 for programming software, then on top of

---- snip ----

It's called "Capitalism", in case you forgot.
 
>> My question is simple, but the answer escapes me. To all you devoted Allen
>> Bradley people and to everyone else who uses PLCs, why do you pay for their
>> programming software?

>> For AB to charge $1100 - $1200 for programming software, then on top of

> ---- snip ----

> It's called "Capitalism", in case you forgot.

So, what are you crying about 100-1500 software. I have a machine that costs over 150K and it has a legacy plc 5 in it. It needs modification of the program and I need RL5 editor. The programming software is between 5 and 6K. Why do I pay? Because I have NO choice. Its either pay or do not complete the job and get maybe get sued. Only really good thing about AB that I appreciate is their distributors seem to have good experienced (+20 years in industry) support personnel. They have been there and done that.
I have what I would term an investment in software for these PLC's as I work on all variety if needed. So plan on forking out 10 or 20K for software over the years just to stay in the game.
Just plan on dropping a couple of k to buy software for the job you are quoting and then follow up with more sales.

Big jobs are hard to find. Therefore, big bucks for the software can be justified if you get one that pays big bucks..

Plus, putting a good price on programming software keeps out wannabes that undercharge for their talent and ruin it for all the other control engineers that need to make a living. Check what AB charges for a service call. It will make you re-think what you are charging your customers.
 
M

Michael Batchelor

>>> My question is simple, but the answer escapes me. To all you devoted Allen
>>> Bradley people and to everyone else who uses PLCs, why do you pay for their
>>> programming software?

>>> For AB to charge $1100 - $1200 for
>programming software, then on top of
>
>> ---- snip ----
>
>> It's called "Capitalism", in case you forgot.

Jeez. Talk about the thread that won't die.
 
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